Total Number of Ratings: 6
Book Club Discussion for Beat the Reaper
Friday, January 1, 2010 6:48 PM
You all did your homework and read the book, right?
I'm still not quite sure of the best way to do a book club discussion here on Murmur. Hopefully, the format I'm outlining here works for everyone on the site that read the book, fosters some discussion, allows all the readers to put in their two cents, and takes advantage of the features and community of Murmur.com.
The discussion of Beat the Reaper will be built around the comment system and "write a response" feature of the site. Most of the discussion of the book will happen in the comments on this article. Everyone that read the book can post their SPOILER-filled comments, reviews, and questions for discussion. I'll also post a few book club questions in the comments, and everyone who wants to respond can reply to the questions. If you have a lot to say about the book - or if you want to post a collaborative article or video - you can click on the "write a response" button and dedicate a whole article to the book. More discussion could occur on these fleshed-out articles, though most will probably be taking place here.
Also, I've been asked to be a guest on one of the upcoming official Murmur podcasts. I'll sit in with the professionals for a segment discussing Beat the Reaper. Since Murmur is such a community-driven site, we would all love to be able to talk on the podcast about the thoughts and reviews from you, the readers. So, of course, the more people can put in their responses to the book the better.
Cool? I'm really hoping this is a way that we can all discuss this (and future) book club books as a group. If anyone has any suggestions for a better way to have the discussion or something to add or remove, please let me know!
And now - to discuss Josh Bazell's Beat the Reaper!
This article is in response to The Murmur Book Club - Beat the Reaper
This article has responses:
The second tank scene didn't get me quite as much as the end of the book - maybe because I felt "primed" for what would happen by the earlier visit in the book. After some fairly graphic descriptions of violence in the book leading up to that point, and something almost happening during the first visit, I was ready for some bad stuff to go down once the scene started. There were a couple scenes I sped through, but that wasn't one of them.
But I don't have a phobia of sharks. I can totally see why that would make the scene wicked hard to get through.
Did anyone try the Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout, the beer I paired with the book? What did you think of the beer? Did it match up well with Beat the Reaper?
Beat the Reaper is filled with examples of doctors (and other members of the medical establishment) behaving badly. How unlikely or outrageous do these episodes seem to you? Could there be a kernel of truth in any of them?
no, it didn't seem believable but I did find it very entertaining. I bought the world that it existed in and totally accepted it.
oprah would have you believe that every medical professional everywhere is a bumbling idiot who's going to accidentally kill you and get away with it.
i'm getting a little tired of all the shows (and now books) painting a picture of how it "really is". i love how the doctors' shows make nurses out to be props and the nurses' shows make doctors out to be completely incompetent while the nurses know and do everything.
i guess only those in the hospitals know for sure :)
Early in the novel Dr. Peter Brown observes that "humans hate being mentally strong and physically weak". By the story's end, is it Pietro/Peter's mental or physical strength that has served him best?
I read this book but I must have missed the start of the discussion -- I already blogged about it a little so I'll post a longer response at some point. My main impression is that I'd rather have read a more developed story about a resident at an underfunded hospital than the Mafia stuff. The crime aspect of the story was clever, but I'm not sure it was anything more than clever.
I do want to raise the issue of Magdalena. Some of the comments below said she doesn't feel like a real character. I have to say, I've gotten pretty accustomed to love interest characters who only exist to have sex with the narrator and then die so that he can feel sad. I read *comic books*, for God's sake. But this character might have been the most egregious example of this phenomenon that I've encountered in a long time. I get that the story is in Peter's point of view and he idealizes her but I think it's the author's job to show the character as an individual -- with, you know, personality and agency and a brain -- and I think this author fell down on the job, there, badly.
Astute observation (as usual), Caroline. I guess I kinda quickly realized that the whole thing was a sort of high-adrenaline action movie in book form (thus all my Batman comparisons). Reminded me a little of Warren Ellis in some ways, but with more emphasis on teaching the reader little facts (as a way of building credibility, perhaps?). In that light, I thought it was a fun romp, but I didn't find it to be a "deep" book by any means. I guess I was okay with that, too, as I did tear through the book.
And I agree with you about Magdalena. She existed as a plot device - a goal for Peter. In fact, I'm not sure there were many really developed characters in the novel. They all seemed a bit like caricatures, the more I think about it. David Locano strikes me as the most developed character after Peter. But again, i just took it as that type of novel -- a fast-paced comic thriller with a fairly unique voice.
i struggled against the book in the beginning for similar reasons. it reminded me of someone trying to emulate neil stephenson's style but not being nearly smart enough. when it became clear that this was going to be a graphic mafia/hospital book, i just relaxed and went with it.
i think magdalena would have bothered me, too, if i'd really cared about any of it by the time she showed up.
I guess I liked the parts I liked enough that the other parts bugged me more -- I kept seeing how this could have been a great book (in terms of the kind of thing I like) when it was just an acceptably entertaining one. Incidentally, the know-it-all narrator reminded me of the lead on "Burn Notice" so hearing it in his voice helped me enjoy it.
The Magdalena thing is a generic criticism (as in "a problem with the genre" not as in "non-descript") and reminded me of one of the reasons I periodically get fed up with crime narratives; it's not an issue with the book so much as the "oh, this crap again."
hey guys, been a little M.I.A for a while but love hearing your thoughts on the book. I generally loved the book and thought it was a lot of fun. It had a great plot and I found myself really turning those pages to see what was going to happen.
I only have one nitpicky complaint and that's with the character of Skinflick. When he is first introduced the protagonist calls him "the smartest guy I had ever met" or something along those lines. Then throughout the story we get to know skinflick who doesn't seem very smart at all. He seems like kind of a screw up actually. A charming screwup but still not very bright.
I would have also liked to have seen their final confrontation be a little bit more epic. Peter takes care of him pretty quickly.
What did you guys think of that character?
That's a great point, Timmy. By the time I finished the book, I had forgotten that Peter ever said that about Skinflick. That IS odd. As far as the final conflict, I kinda felt like that was intended to subvert expectations. It feels like a big climax, but really, removing his own goddamn bone was the tough part. Although all the talk of Skingraft learning to knife fight did make it feel like they were building up to a big battle. That said, I think I might have lost interest if, at that point, he depicted another protracted "action" sequence. I don't think we needed that.
Ending it quickly was okay with me. Earlier in 2009, I read a story that had a 10 page sword fight scene between two characters. It got old quick. At one point, the fight even stirred a flock of birds into flight, turning the whole thing into one big John Woo scene. So, short is okay with me.
That is odd. I don't have the book anymore to go back and check but I wonder if he said that as a first reaction to Skinflick. I can tell you that I have met some people in my life that my first impression was great. Sure they seemed smart and exciting the first meeting, but after that...well, not so much.
I guess you guys are right. I don't think I would want the knife fight to be longer. I just wanted some more gravitas to their final meeting/battle.
wasn't skinflick called "smart" because he knew who to latch onto to be/look successful/cool? seems to me that was more or less accurate throughout the book, he just wasn't always very good at it.
i think it was clear from the start of the fight that no matter how much training Skinflick/graft had, Peter was going to win, so long as he had a knife. i'm not sure i needed to read anything after he "acquired" the knife except the end, frankly ;)
Here's another question, since I've been dying to see how everyone else reacted - what did you think of the gristly end of the book?
One final warning - END OF BOOK SPOILERS
So, he breaks off a bone in his own leg to make a knife?! Even with the foreshadowing of the first footnote and the violence throughout the book, I was totally hit off guard by the sheer ... is intensity the right word? ... of the end. I can't think of another scene in a book that has made me as queasy as that part of Beat the Reaper.
I was also hit off guard, not what I was expecting. If I were to list 100 ways that scene would have went, that wouldn't have been close. And I think even how the violence of it really slaps you in the face. One second he is going back to save a girls life, then 2 pages later (give or take) he is ripping his own leg open.
It was definitely unexpected, and I loved that it was truly foreshadowed from the beginning of the book. It was a cool twist, although it did also keep that "Batman" comparison going in my mind. These possible-yet-only-to-one-with-immense-training-and-willpower feats straddle that Batmanesque hero/super-hero line.
It took me three tries to get through it and I even contemplated just skipping it all together. But I persevered although I still can decided if that was the right choice. It was probably one of the grisly things I've ever read. No, strike that the grisliest. It was also awesome because it was foreshadowed so well. So, great and not great all at the same time.
This book really brought out a dissonance for me in that I can watch, or, particularly, read things that are very violent -- like the shark scenes -- and I'm fine, but *medical* detail grosses me out fast; I did not WANT to know about that girl with the brain infection from the piercing. I guess the bone stabbing thing straddled the line but it was a little too ridiculous to bother me.
Much like Carlee posted in her review I came at this book with a blank slate. I had absolutely no idea what the movie was about. I didn't read discriptions or blurbs. I just saw murmur was doing a book club, and thought "well, these are like minded people. Lets have a shared experience." And just dove right in. As I tarted the book, I went from thinking this is some book about the mafia, to thinknig it was a medical book, to learning how it all melded. This was a new and very rewarding experience for me.
I am never the one to cry about spoilers. I opten go otu loking for spoilers if there is going to be a delay of when I can read a comic, or see the resolution of a tv show. To me the art isn't the plot points, but how we get to each one. So tell me what happens, and I'll still happily watch. But maybe I should rethink that, espcially when it comes to taking in things. So many times even just a brief synopsis of a book/movie/tv show or even a description of a band can give everything away.
After reading hte book I went back and read the murmur and amazon description and I would have sussed out the general tone and where the book was going to go. But being completely in the dark and feeling and finding my way was definately an experience I will continue if we do another one of these.
I love getting books recommened to me and knowing nothing about them. Its just pure discovery of a story, not always a good story. I think this is where we go wrong with previews (of all kinds of media). We just know too much of the story before you actually see/read it.
Most of the time I don't read a book without reading the full description and even a couple of reviews on amazon or audible but this time I just dove right in. It was an intriguing experience - if I had done my normal 'research' I may have chickened out and not read the book. I'm happy I went with it though, and I agree that I would go about picking a book this way again.
I'll have to think about whether or not I have a full review in me, rather than just a few discussion points, but I'll tell you a few initial impressions:
- The narrative voice was interesting to me. While you first notice it because of the footnotes, the fact is the narration is littered with little instructional tidbits about everything from silencers to the mafia to martial arts. I thought this was an intriguing choice because I found myself really liking all the information, but at times it also pulled me out of the story, as I began to wonder about the writer and how he researched the facts and details, etc. And then thought made me very conscious of this style, and I began -- in spots -- to feel as though the writer was showing off a little, saying "look at me! Look at all the stuff I learned and poured into my book!"
- The other thing I felt, in addition to the apt comparisons to 'House meets the Sopranos' was a weird Batman/Punisher vibe. I think it's maybe because Peter is such a badass. He knows a lot, he is a skilled killer AND a healer, and frankly, maybe I'm just more used to down-on-their-luck, hangdog protagonists in my novels. But when Peter starts giving you his backstory, in which he is orphaned and then trains himself to take down the mafia, only to become one of them while still living by a code to kill only scumbags, it became a little prevalent to me. And then... then you have his former friend Skinflick, who becomes "skingraft", a trained killer with a hideous face -- a killer created BY Peter -- well, that just gave the Batman his Joker. Or the Punisher his 'Jigsaw' if you prefer.
Hmm. I may have enough for a review...
psst! if you're not going to be on the related podcast (and you'd know if you were), you stand a chance of getting a shout-out on said podcast if you chat it up a bit here :)
Related podcast, eh? Hmmm, I wondered about that. I'm of two minds about a "book club" podcast. It strikes me that a real discussion can't come without truly spoiling the book. Which means that the podcast would be for those who have read the book -- which would mean someone stumbling across Murmur because they were looking for discussion on the book, or they are already part of the community and on board with the book selection. If it's the former, it seems to me that someone would want to be PART of the discussion, rather than listening to one that's already occurred, and if it's the latter, it strikes me as a little insular -- which is fine for a book club, but I wonder if it's good for a podcast?
OK, that sounds like I'm judging. I'm not. Promise! :) I'll definitely check it out. Just curious as to the plan/thought process here, and if there will be additional book club podcasts, etc. Was just mulling it over ever since JChristie's first mention of a podcast. Cuz, y'know, I read the book, and would love to discuss it with some friends, but I guess I just felt it would be odd to just "listen in" on a discussion.
OK, now I will leave some actual book comments. :)
we're still working out the kinks of the podcast, so please reserve final judgments for a couple of months :)
this round, it's going to be a segment of a normal podcast, so more like the "featured article" segments and less like 4 people chatting for an hour and not letting anyone else in on it.
that's why we wanted to give this comment thread and the related reviews time to brew a bit. so we could include folks by referencing what they've said as well.
but, like i said, work in progress. :)
Thanks, Kelly. I didn't mean to sound like a downer. I think you guys'll handle it well. It honestly just came from something I was mulling over when a "book club podcast" came up. I started wondering how it would or wouldn't work, and then I saw this thread and felt like responding. Understood that the podcasts here are still finding their feet. I'm all for organic growth with the community. :)
Almost finished but had to stop cause got too creeped out while listening before going to sleep (well staying up until 2am cause I didn't want to stop listening even though I was completely creeped out doesn't help) I'm in the next to last chapter and will hopefully finish tomorrow in daylight hours. My review/thoughts will follow.
Who was your favorite character in Beat the Reaper: Pietro Brnwa/Peter Brown? Skinflick? David Locano? Magdalena? Eddy Squillante? Did you find that your favorite had changed by the end of the novel?
Peter, and he was through the whole book. I pretty much always hated skinflick the whole book. He was one of those "bad friends" and just bugged me.
I liked that Peter had a good core, but stil satisfied his baser urges, and sold himself out to have family. But when the chips were down he always did the right thing.
Yeah, I'm with Paul. I think Peter's the only character you can empathize with. Magdalena wasn't really a character in my mind -- she was well described, but she's so perfect in Peter's mind that we don't really get to know her.
As I mentioned in my separate comments, Peter had a "code" and so even though he was kind of a fucked up guy, I never really felt he was a "bad" guy.
What do you think the future holds for Dr. Peter Brown? Do you think he will quit crime for good, or will he leave medicine and return to his old habits? What would you like to see happen?
There are many dramatically charged scenes in Beat the Reaper, but the story is also broadly humorous. What was the funniest moment in the novel for you, and why?
The dinner with the girl's parents. It was uncomfortable and funny at the same time. One of those situations that is always weird, and funny when it isn't happening to you.
I don't know about funniest, but a scene that pops into mind is the rather bizarre surgery scene, where Peter scrubs in and joins Dr. Friendly in the operating room. The bits about losing consciousness, the bad jokes, the moment where Peter wants to remove the spleen but Friendly wants to save it... surreal and fascinating.
My dislike of the footnotes started pretty quickly, but I was sold on them after a few more chapters. Couldn't get enough by the end of the book.
Having listened to the story as an audiobook instead of reading it, I didn't even know the book had footnotes. They were just slipped into the narrative of the text without comment. After reading someone mention them on Twitter, I checked an actual print copy of the book and was surprised to find them there.
So, the footnotes were a non-issue for me. I didn't know they existed, so I guess I liked them.
Like JeffR I listened to the book, but now I feel like I've missed out on something. I'm a huge fan of footnotes, if they are done right, and I am now inclined to pick up a print version of the book so I can look them over.
I did like the meta commentary that they provided. And they are done in sucha way that you can read the whole book without them.
the footnotes were pretty unwieldy in the kindle-on-the-kindle version and they weren't quite valuable enough to be worth the effort, but worthy enough not to be completely ignored.
As i mentioned in separate comments, I liked the footnotes, but I thought it was odd because there were so many little "footnote" type facts littered throughout the story anyway -- I was interested to hear that the audiobook version just slipped them in. It occurs to me that that would be seamless because so much of the narrative involved Peter explaining things to the reader anyway.
Kind of a funny e-reader geek note -- the first two books I read on my new Kindle were this and Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" which has (more scholarly) footnotes ever so often. I was annoyed in both cases by the mechanism of having to click but I got so USED to it, that I kind of miss it when most of the books I read don't have footnotes!
I thought the present story was better. Just that it held more weight by keeping me guessing what would happen. The shark tank chapter loses much of its luster when you already know that Dr. Brown survives.
The present story had me more interested for sure. For some reason, mob stories don't do much for me but drop some real life medical facts into a story set in a hospital and I'm hooked. The present felt more immediate and had more suspense to it. We basically know how things will turn out before the flashbacks start. No details, obviously, but we knew the resolution. Couple that with the mob stuff and it didn't get me going.
For me it was the flashbacks. Learning about his life was much more interesting, than his day in the hospital, which at times had me just rolling my eyes. I've seen the "lets look at the crazy stuff that goes on in a hospital" done better in Nurse Jackie. It wasn't until the very end that the present day held any interest for me. ANd then it was only because I could feel the weight of the history him and skinflick had.
Respond
can we talk about the shark tank? foolish me completely ignored "how to write a book 101" and when we left it the first time, i never dreamed we'd go back. even when skinflick was taking him back to the same place, i didn't put it together until they said the words.
and then. and then....
i'm not sure i'm clear on what happened during that scene because i was racing so fast to get through it. i'm fairly certain i would have needed to skip it on the audio book because it would force not only a slower pacing, but "force" me to hear every word.
then again, i have a mild phobia of sharks so your experience may have been different.